The Dialogues of Marecrates
It happened in this way. Marecrates was meandering about the market looking for some other fellow to argue with when she came upon a familiar face.
“Celestia!” She shouted, calling over for her student and trusted friend.
“What has brought you to the market on such a day? I can see that you are in your finest dress, as always, but your complexion seems particularly pleasant.” Marecrates asked.
“As it should be my dear Marecrates, for I am here to procure for myself what has been called by many Equestria’s sweetest honey, from its best bee keeper. So it would only be fitting for my own face to be equally as sweet.” Celestia explained to the mare, trotting alongside her to the beekeeper’s stall.
“By sweetest do you also mean most expensive?” Marecrates asked.
“Naturally, otherwise it would not be the sweetest.” The other mare replied.
“And exactly how much would such a thing cost, say compared to the second sweetest honey in all of Equestria? Would it cost twice as much?” Marecrates continued.
“Twice as much? Assuredly not! Dare I say that it might cost as much as ten times that of the cheaper product, if not more.” Celestia exclaimed, seemingly hurt by her good teacher’s degrading valuation of her fair honey.
“Yet do you suppose that it is ten times as sweet? Or even twice as sweet? I say in all likelihood it would not be one tenth sweeter, and I would try both myself to be the judge of it, if I did not find the thing detestable.” Marecrates explained.
“Is gold all that prettier than iron? Indeed it isn’t half as strong, for there is a reason that it is very rarely used as armour or in the smithing of weapons, even for the richest and vainest sort of men, and if it is at least not before first being mixed throughly with some other metal. You may say by this measure that gold should be no more expensive than iron, yet clearly it is the superior metal, for men do not covet iron half as much as they do gold.” Celestia went on to explain, thinking herself quite clever for refuting her teacher’s argument.
“Yes, indeed. This is so, and I imagine that you might think yourself quite wise for having come up with it, as I saw your eyes grow as sweet as your face upon expounding upon it. But I do not take that for an argument towards the usefulness of your honey, but the uselessness of gold.”
“For I believe that you will find that both only have value in so much as men treasure them, for to no tortoise would rather a prettier shell than a hard one that would protect it against it’s fellow beasts, as no bear would scoff at the bees’ nectar, lest it not be the sweetest in it’s particular bit of the woods, never mind Equestria and the world beyond it. Only ponies are vain enough to value a thing for it’s rarity, or scoff at another perfectly nourishing thing for it not being the best.” Marecrates explained to her student.
Celestia laughed back at this. “You tottering old mare, you do make me laugh. I would not concern myself too much with the opinions of tortoises, if for no other reason than I am not one, and as such their affairs have no bearing on me. I would rather converse with the meanest slave, for from him I might at least get a few words.”
“But while I may hold them higher than those of wild beasts I likewise not too concerned with the opinions of slaves, for as I have explained I seek only the best Equestria has to offer, and I consider you, Marecrates, to be the best of minds, among Equestrian, Barbarian, slave, and indeed, tortoise.” Celestia replied.
“No you are indeed not a tortoise, nor are you a slave, or a mean mare. That is the very reason that I find you so detestable. For if you were such a thing I would not find much fault in you, but as you are, a mare of some intellect, a rational mind, you ought to be hideously ashamed and think yourself lower, for they fulfil their station in life, you do not.” Marecrates went on with clear indignation, although she student knew her to hold no genuine animosity towards herself.
“Could you please explain, dear Marecrates how indulging in a mere spoonful of honey would truly make me so wretched?” Celestia piously asked, although not without a hint of good humour and a slight smirk.
“By Faust, I shall do so to the effect that not a drop of the stuff shall ever pass your lips as long as you live, and you will consider it no less bitter than pure vinegar.”
“First, I must ask whether you consider it to bring you more pleasure or pain to yourself than to a poor beggar who could not afford the stuff?” Marecrates started.
“Well yes, if she can not afford surely it can bring her no pleasure? Thus it pleases me more than it does her.” Celestia asked incredulously.
“But that was only half of my question. I also asked whether or not it would bring her more pain.” Marecrates retorted.
“Surely it would bring her more pain than pleasure, as he can derive absolutely no pleasure from it, yet might be pained by her deprivation from it.” Celestia reasoned.
“We are approaching the stall in question, and I must ask you, do you see many beggars?” Marecrates asked.
“I see none, but I also fail to see your point.” Celestia replied.
“And why do you think that is?” Marecrates continued.
“Because any beggar that would dare come this far into the nicer portion of the market would be chased away violently with sticks.” The young mare simply stated as a matter of fact.
“And who do you know that would converse with such types, in the market or any other place for that matter? Would it be those who can afford to buy such things as nature’s sweetest honey?” Marecrates asked.
“No. Other than yourself, who will talk with literally anypony I do not know of many who would bother. Indeed I would not be surprised at all if I were to see you debating the finer philosophical points of ancient Equish poetry with a tortoise.” Celestia joked.
“Then we can assume that our poor beggar would know nothing of your fine honey? How would he know otherwise?” Marecrates pointed out.
“No, I suppose she would not.” Celestia simply replied.
“In that case how could she derive any pain from the deprivation of that which she does not even know to exist? How could she long for such a thing that she has no knowledge of?” Marecrates explained.
“In that case he could derive neither pleasure nor pain from it. To her it might as well not exist”. Celestia replied.
“In which case you would find both more pleasure and pain in it?” Marecrates asked.
“Infinity so, for she can know none.” Celestia replied.
“And how long do you expect to actually enjoy this honey for, relishing it’s taste?” Marecrates asked.
“I am buying but one jar. I expect it to last me no more than a day, and evidently I shall not spend the entirety of the day eating it, but what you may call an insignificant portion of it.” Celestia said.
“And I have heard that this mare you speak of is a traveler, and unless you intend to follow her to every corner of Equestria your precious honey will soon escape your grasp. Will you not long for it when it is forever gone?” Marecrates pointed out.
“I suppose that I shall.” Celestia replied.
“And this longing will on the whole bring you pain, as it certainly can’t be called pleasurable?” Marecrates asked.
“Yes.” Celestia simply said.
“And your time spent longing for it will be far greater than that spent actually enjoying it, both before and after our fine beekeeper has actually left?” Marecrates asked.
“This is also true, I must admit.” Celestia relented.
“Then the whole thing will cause you more anguish than it will satisfaction, as you will only know it’s delights for but a few instances, yet you may spend some great time hopelessly longing for them with no reprieve?” Marecrates continued.
“Again, this is also true.” Celestia repeated herself.
“Then at least in this matter who is better off, you who knew it’s sweetness for a few precious seconds or the beggar who was spared from your insatiable longings? Who will be more pained by it?” Marecrates asked.
“Surely I shall.” Celestia conceded.
“In which case you truly are more detestable than the beggar!” Marecrates exclaimed.
“Aha, in this one respect I must admit by your logic that I am. But I have a feeling that that is not the end of the matter.” Celestia said.
“Indeed, you are right my dear friend and faithful student, for honey is the least of longings stirred up in mares. What would you say is the greatest? When I say the word lust, what word first comes to your mind.” Marecrates continued.
“Sex?” Celestia simply asked.
“Yes, and could you think of anything that mares seek that brings them more pain? For if we were to compare the time mares spend in lust to that they spend in sex I expect that they would spend no more than a second fulfilling their desires for every hour they spend tormenting over it.” Marecrates explained.
“Please, continue no further for now, for I know exactly what you are going to say next. That a mare who knew not of sex would be infinitely more free of anguish than one who knew all too much about it.” Celestia predicted.
“By Faust, my teachings really are rubbing off on you! And what would you say off a sex fiend, such as those colts who on growing a full beard prefer not to seek a husband and foals for the city, but rather to chase after those of their own sort in lust?” Marecrates asked.
“I imagine that they must be the most tormented of all, for while they may gain more of it, their desire for it surely matches if not greatly exceeds their pleasure, as it does in a milder case, only the greater it be the more so the inequality between lust and fulfilment will be as a result. One must pity such a lost soul, for in his knowledge of the thing he assuredly only finds ignorance.” Celestia reasoned.
“In other words the sweeter the sex, the more we know about it, and the more of it we have the worse the position we’ll be in, the more it will torment us, the greater our instatible longings?” Marecrates asked.
“This can only be the case.” Celestia replied.
“Then ask yourself my dear fellow, is there really so much difference between sex and honey? Is the difference really not just in degrees? For surely they both excite lust in us, which will be far more compelling in the former is nonetheless the same emotion?” Marecrates asked.
“No, they are really quite the same if we are to consider them in this way.” Celestia reasoned.
“In which case the sweeter the honey the more anguish it will bring you. For if the honey were to be mediocre or not suited to your palate you would not lust for it. The more you enjoy it, the more pleasurable it is to you, the more lustful you will become, the more you will desire, and thus the worse off you will be when deprived of it.” Marecrates reasoned.
“By Faust, I did not think of it in such a way!” Celestia explained.
“Yes, which is why I call you a fool, my young friend!” Marecrates exclaimed.
“Now I must ask you something else relating to this subject.” Marecrates continued.
“And what is that? I am eager to learn, my dear old friend.” Celestia asked.
“Are all rich mares happier than all poor men?” Marecrates asked.
“No, not all of them. Indeed there are many rich mares who are nothing more than in bittered old curmudgeons who would not know the meaning of the word. Likewise there are many poor mares who are more than contented with their lives and quite joyous than the richest of tyrant or Griffin kings.” Celestia explained.
“Why do you think this is?” Marecrates simply asked.
“I suspect that it is because the poor mare, the humble mare knows nothing of money, or power for that matter, and can therefore not lust after it. While the tyrant or truly rich man of the city knows nothing but it, yet is in constant agitation, as he always wishes for more money, more power, more slaves. A mare who would own a hundred slaves would own a million if she could, and yet with a entire nation at her subjugation all she would think about is power, she would toss and turn in his bed, in a kind of madness, for her insatiable lust could never be satisfied.” Celestia explained.
“Then so much as one has the necessities of living, food, clothing, property, a means of educating one’s self and rearing one’s young, and of course defending all of this is there really much point in him having much more? If she were contented in this and had all he truly needed to achieve her pony potential should things such as honey, gold, fine clothing, or sex really add to his lot?” Marecrates asked.
“No, I expect they would only agitate her. Furthermore they would excite envy in her neighbours and discord in the community, which may endanger what good he originally had.” Celestia explained.
“Why I did not even think of that fine point myself, how excellent!” Marecrates exclaimed, commending his pupil.
“In that case why be rich if I can be just as happy poor?” Marecrates asked.
“I see no rational reason to want anything beyond what we have lain out.” Celestia replied.
“How about this then. Are all glutinous mares happier than those without an appetite?” Marecrates continued.
“I see you pose the same argument to me in different clothing, in which case my answer can be no different than that which I have already given.” Celestia explained.
“Well I must repeat myself but once more. Why have an appetite in that case?” Marecrates asked.
“One would be far more contented if she wanted for nothing, if she knew nothing more than what she truly needed and was wholesome and natural to her, what would be conducive to her genuine betterment. All other appetites must be seen distractions, no, grave evils that will only serve only to agitate her soul and cause him to lust endlessly after more. She will be enslaved by her appetite, always wanting more, never being contented.”
“The sweeter her honey the sweeter she will desire it, so that truly to her no matter how sweet the honey may become it will all taste the same to her. For that first spoonful she had as a child, of which still she has tasted not a drop sweeter today would taste to her as sour as vinegar. Her appetite grows, her lust grows, but the pleasures remain relatively the same, they just become harder to acquire, and thus he must constantly put herself through more and more strain to achieve what once she had cost her mother not a bit, which now cost her a thousand. And yet no matter how sweet, or how expensive, no honey will ever compare to the honey her mother had first fed her, which to him now tastes like dirt.” Celestia explained in length.
“By Faust, do not think I could have put it better myself, Celestia! Now you see how foolish you were to go for sweetest honey, and not the worst, or better yet, none at all.” Marecrates exclaimed.
“Now we must cover one more thing.” Marecrates said.
“You have my full attention my friend, as you always have.” Celestia replied with a gentle admiring smile.
“Tell me what one thing can a mare bring with her no matter who she may be, citizen, alien, or slave? No matter what condition he may be in or what deprivation he may suffer under?” Marecrates asked.
“I do not know. The body? Surely a mare must take her body wherever he must go, for could we really call her a mare, or anything at all for that matter if she was without form, moulded by the Gods?” Celestia asked.
“No, for the body may be beaten and broken by lashes and stones, it may be starved or over worked to exhaustion. Or indeed, simple old age, which befalls us all who are lucky enough to reach, will itself prove to be the body’s greatest enemy.” Marecrates explained.
“Then I do not know of what you speak. Please Marecrates, tell me, what one thing may a man always trust upon, no matter how detestable his condition?” Celestia earnestly asked.
“The mind. I find it telling that you would mention the body, because everything we have conversed about up until this point has concerned just that. But you have already seen how foolish it is to indulge it.” Marecrates explained.
“For you see, my young Celestia, the mind, especially if it be fully within your control and free of sensual appetite, is your own domain. You may do with it whatever you want, and it will forever be your most faithful companion.”
“This is why we ought to tend to our minds and forbid worldly pleasures. This is why we ought to exercise them just as much as we do our bodies’ at the gymnasia, if not more so, for as I have explained, the mind unlike the body is something we can take long into old age, and make constant improvements upon. Unlike the body, which grows feeble and brittle with age, the mind, if properly exercised, gains strength and vigour with age.”
“The life of the mind is the only life worth living. It is the only life that comes with no hang ups. It is the only life that flourishes and grows with time, that we need not lust after, for it is our constant pleasure and companion.”
“I say to you, Celestia, if you can but control your own mind, free of appetite, you will truly want for nothing. Indeed, why would you want for anything when in your own skull lies infinite possibility for growth and exploration?”
“Curiosities and pleasures of intrigue to delight, and you must only call upon them, and they are. You must in this way make your mind your most faithful and eager slave, and you will want for nothing, for you will always have a servant. Least your appetites make a slave for you.” Marecrates exclaimed, finishing of their friendly debate.
The Dialogues of Marecrates
Marecrates was walking down a quiet old lane when in this way he came across her well known associate and student, Celestia
“Celestia my good friend, as you have so recently gained such enormous power over the reins of the state alongside your sister I feel that it is now more important than ever that we are able to challenge one another on just these very issues.” Marecrates exclaimed, approaching her friend.
“And I suppose that you have some question to ask me in that case then?” Celestia asked, knowingly.
“The very thing, and as you seem so eager I will save you the bother of asking me what the question is. As such, do you suppose that it is right for a court of law to assume, prior to the beginning of a trial, that the mare in question is innocent or guilty?” Marecrates asked.
“Well I suppose that it would depend on the circumstances of the crime and character of the man, but overall I’d surely say that it makes more sense for us to assume that she is guilty, for guilty mares are on the whole more likely to be brought forth to the law than innocent, as this is the law’s purpose, to punish the guilty.” Celestia replied.
“Yes this is the case, but you paint in broad strokes my friend. Would it not make more sense to treat individual trials individually?” Marecrates continued to ask.
“I agree.” Celestia replied simply.
“And is not the purpose of the law also to insure the safety of the innocent?” Marecrates asked.
“Yes.” Celestia again replied.
“And would you not say that this purpose trumps that of punishment, as punishment mainly serves to dissuade others from committing a similar crime, thus endangering the innocent public?” Marecrates asked.
“Of course. Other than a crude sense of vengeance it seems to me that the law serves us best when other potential wrongdoers see it’s cruel punishments, and as a result are more weary to commit any cruelty themselves against others.” Celestia added.
“Well then my friend, I must present you with four scenarios, all involving the crime of murder.” Marecrates began.
“Let us say that in the first case that mare in question is innocent and is judged to be innocent by the court. In the second she is guilty and is so judge to be guilty by the court, being executed for her crime. Now we can make our little moral quandary a lot easier by putting these two cases aside, as in both the court has upheld its purpose and delivered a just verdict.”
“The other two cases as we shall see however are of another variety entirely. In the first the mare is innocent, yet she is found guilty and put to death. In the second the mare is guilty of his crime and is found to be innocent, being wrongly set free.”
“In one case an innocent mare most certainly dies, which as we have just said goes directly against the very purpose of the law, to protect the innocent. In the other a guilty mare trots free, which while a wrong in of itself in this case there is only a possibility that she may recommit his crime, which however large must necessarily be less than the almost certainty of the innocent mare being put to death in the other case.”
“In one case an innocent mare dies, in the other there is merely a possibility that an innocent mare may be killed sometime in the future. Now which would you say my dear Celestia is the worse of the two?” Marecrates finished.
“Surely the certainty of a wrong is worse than the mere possibility?” Celestia asked back.
“Then is it not right that in cases where we are uncertain of the guilt or innocence of the accused, and our suspicions have no concrete reason to sway greatly towards either side that we must assume that he is innocent of any crime, and treat her as such, for by simple mathematics the probability of wrong being done to an innocent is far higher in any case in which, despite ambiguity, we were to execute a mare whom we did not know to be innocent or guilty?” Marecrates asked.
“This does seems to be the case, by pure logical reasoning at least. Although I must admit that I have never thought of the problem in such a way, so I will need some time to think it over. Regardless however, you have certainly disturbed my once unquestioned stance and yet so neatly put the matter, and I must thank you for that.” Celestia said, graciously thanking her old friend.
“It is no trouble to me at all, I assure you. I’m just happy to be given the opportunity to spur such honest questioning.”
The Dialogues of Marecrates
Marecrates Says Trans Rights
“Marecrates, have you heard? There is a great commotion in the city over a mad stallion who claims to be a mare. He dresses as a mare does, and tries to act the part as would a skilled actor in the theatre.” Celestia exclaimed, approaching the older mare.
“And what exactly would you call a mare, Celestia?” Marecrates asked.
“I do not follow. What could you possibly mean by this? Surely a mare is every bit a mare as a dog is a dog, how could you go by any other meaning?” Celestia asked back.
“Indeed, I must admit that I myself am only now consuming the problem, as I have never heard of another so mad as to genuinely think himself to be the opposite sex. But maybe by the end of our inquiry we shall not find him to be as mad as we once thought.” Marecrates replied.
“It is possible.” Celestia simply said.
“Well then, first, does this young lady as she calls herself believe that she actually has a physical form other than that given to her?” Marecrates asked.
“I do not believe so, for I did hear others crudely ask or rather joke about this person’s penis, and they did not deny to having one, despite being so adamant that they are a mare.” Celestia replied.
“How interesting. So by mare they must mean something other than purely the physical form.” Marecrates mused.
“Tell me this, Celestia, if I were to take your mind and implant it into the body of a stallion would you rather be thought of as a stallion or a mare?” Socrates asked.
“Surely a mare. I find it hard to even imagine myself as anything but such.” Celestia explained.
“But would you not have the body of a stallion?” Marecrates asked.
“According to your analogy I would.” Celestia agreed.
“But how can you call yourself mare, if you inhabit the body of a stallion?” Marecrates continued.
“Getting back to my example of a dog, would you consider me to be so if my spirit somehow got mixed up in one? For I believe that your answer will agree with mine.” Celestia asked.
“I think the answer to be very obvious in that case, I would consider you to be a dog in body, and a mare in spirit, you would be partly both.” Marecrates explained.
“In that case how should men refer to me? As a dog, a mare, or a dog-mare?” Celestia asked.
“As a mare, for they would be talking to your spirit, not your flesh. Surely it makes more sense to regard you as such in everyday transactions, for as far as our example has yet gone your character has not changed.” Marecrates explained
“And if I was to be a mare as I am now trapped inside a stallion’s body it would be no different?” Celestia asked.
“I do not see why it would be.” Marecrates responded.
“Do you suppose this person then to be a stallion trapped in a mare’s body.” Celestia asked again.
“I can not know for sure, but if their character is and always has been as it is now then I don’t think it all together mad to consider that person at least in part a mare.” Marecrates explained.
“Are you saying that their character in being a mare is as immutable as their having been born into a male body, that they were born with such a character?” Celestia asked.
“No, for your character is not quite as constant as your body. One you are born with and grows in a certain definite way, the other while greatly influenced by your birth is equally determined by your upbringing.” Marecrates explained.
“Then if a stallion were to have the character that we would ascribe to a mare in how he felt and perceived the world, in a way he would be a mare?” Celestia asked.
“Yes, while their body must always be that of a stallion, their character, spirit, soul, however you would put it is surely that of a mare.” Marecrates replied.
“Even if their body had not been swapped around with the other sex? Could someone be like this by nature?” Celestia asked.
“If they can have the character of the opposite sex I do not see why it should matter if they actually switched bodies by some supernatural event, or simply developed in this way. They would very simply have the body of one and the character of another.” Marecrates explained.
“Consider it like this. What would you say of a stallion who was raised as a filly from birth, and in every respect acted as and was treated as a mare, to the point that for their choice of attire and mannerisms they seem no different than any other mare. Would it be wholly ridiculous to call such a person a mare, even though they were born as a stallion?” Marecrates asked.
“No, I shall say that while they were born as a stallion and shall forever inhabit the body of a stallion, if they acted in every respect as a mare does, and saw the world and themselves as a mare their character would truly be that of a mare. They would, and I feel like we are repeating ourselves here, but it is worth covering once more, be a man in so much as they have a penis, but in every other way they would be as their character or spirit was.”
